Katie Gregson-MacLeod

Katie Gregson-MacLeod

on her studies, collaborations, and going viral

I first found Katie Gregson-MacLeod like a lot of people did — while I was doom-scrolling on TikTok. She hails from the Scottish Highlands, and in her very early twenties has already accomplished what some musicians only dream of doing. The New York Times has said her voice is “lovely and affecting, somewhere between wistful and determined” and she holds 5.4 million likes on TikTok. As Katie and I chat about below, she was actually studying history at university before her first big viral moment — an impromptu video of her playing a song she’d just written at the time called ‘complex’ which gained 100,000 views in its first night on the platform. That video of her playing ‘complex’ comes in at 9 million views today. At the end of 2022, Katie signed with Arista Records/Columbia Records UK and released an EP called ‘Songs Written for Piano.’ Known and very well loved for her confessional songwriting, my favorite thing about Katie’s work is her ability to easily marry style and substance. Not only is her work excellently produced, but the songwriting is what really packs the punch. Her new EP “Big Red’ is out now everywhere. ◇ 2023

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Cariann Hope: Hi, Katie!

Katie Gregson-Macleod: Hello! Sorry, I was just in the studio downstairs and had to run up. It’s been a chaotic couple days in the studio, so…

Cariann: No worries at all. Thanks for meeting with me at such a late time for you. I'm so excited to be talking with you. I can give you a little background on my platform. Not sure how much your team told you about us, so does that sound good to start with?

Katie: Yeah! I've been reading some but go ahead, please.

Cariann: Cool, yeah. So, I started this platform in 2018 called Midnight Woman and it's basically an online platform where people can submit stories anonymously. The aim is for it to be a safe space for people online. And out of that came l'Odet, which is why we're talking, and it's basically just a place where I can talk to people who are just out here living their truth and making art about real topics. I'm so excited to talk to you about your music.

Katie: Amazing. Yeah, I can't wait. Thank you for having me.

Cariann: I've seen your song [complex] all over TikTok! I'm sure it's just been a whirlwind for you and that's what you're talking about a lot in interviews right now. I had it in mind to talk to you a little bit about your background because you were in university during the pandemic, weren't you?

Katie: Yeah, yeah, up until a few months ago.

Cariann: Oh, okay. Did you graduate or did you leave to take a break?

Katie: I left before my fourth year. I deferred, so technically I could go back. I do want to finish it. I have this thing where I want to finish it but I could graduate now, I think with a BA, but I don't want to graduate yet. I want to do my fourth year. I started uni in 2019 and then I dropped out or deferred a few months ago when all this happened because I was like, this is insane, this would be impossible.

Cariann: Yeah, balancing all of this and school, I would imagine, is crazy. But what were you studying?

Katie: History! I do miss studying a lot, to be honest. I was studying mainly Stalinist history. That was my area of focus, '20s, '30s Soviet era. I was going into my fourth year in which I was doing a dissertation on the '36 to '39 era. But it'll have to wait, I guess—hopefully it won't change too much.

Cariann: Yeah, I got my BA — I graduated in 2017. I studied English and writing and I loved it so much. I just feel like, with school, when you're out of it and you look back, there's so many opportunities to do things and work with people that just aren't in the real world and I feel like I took them for granted a little bit. I do miss studying sometimes.

Katie: For sure, me too. I think that there would also be a lot of benefit if we didn't feel like we were supposed to go to uni straight after secondary school or high school. I feel like a lot of people would go to it with a completely different mindset if they went four years after leaving or whatever, just when they have had the time to think, find, or discover their own passion. I feel the same way. I think that, my third year, I was so into it and I really was putting the effort in but, the first two years, you feel like you're getting forced to do it in a weird way. I just didn't take advantage of it. I definitely look back at it with so much wistfulness and nostalgia even though it was only the last couple years because it's just like this bubble. It's a whole different bubble of life that you get to experience. Obviously, I'm in a different kind of bubble now, but I look at it very strongly. I do miss it.

Cariann: What is your favorite part about history? What do you love studying about it and what does it bring to your life? I'd be interested to know because I don't know much about that time you were studying.

Katie: I love research and I've always been really interested in... I guess, it's storytelling, I guess it's the stories. 

I grew up around my older brother who was way more of a history fanatic than I am and he was so into it. All the films and books and games that were around when I was growing up were historical fiction or in that kind of world. And my parents are both in some way involved in history. My mom did classics and music and my dad did English Lit but with a focus on Victorian — Walter Scott's literature. So, I feel like history is big in our family. I was raised around it but I just always loved the storytelling of it. And I guess when I was younger, it was more of a romantic version of it. When I got into the later years of secondary school, I found myself gravitating towards social, political, and cultural history, and English and politics — they all overlapped a bit for me.

But yeah, uni I just love. Obviously, at the time, I don't think I probably loved all the research I had to do but there's something really fulfilling about the process of writing. Writing essays was what I was most fond of at uni. It sounds ridiculous, but the process of the research and then eventually finding a flow and then finishing that piece of work… I find my most fulfilling parts of uni were always the last couple days before an essay was due — when it's really just you in that world, I love that and that's the part that I miss.

I don't know what it is about Soviet history which got my attention, but it was always what I wanted to do from the start of being at uni. And if it wasn't Soviet, I did quite a lot of Holocaust history but in relation to education in Soviet territories versus West Germany. So, I did a lot of different kinds of history but those were my main interests. I think that anyone that's had a session with me for more than a couple days will probably tell you this, but I'm very interested in archives and the way that history can change and how politics changes history. I did, obviously, Russian history, which is a very interesting case of that, of how the political landscape alters the historical so much. But yeah, so I did enjoy it a lot and I do miss that process of research, you know?

Cariann: Yeah, definitely. I've been working on some writing projects — one is fiction and then I've been working on a script and it's just been so fun researching. I also agree, I think that my favorite part of a creative project is doing all the research, getting all the visuals together and, when you have that breakthrough and it really all comes together, it's the most fulfilling thing ever.

Katie: As soon as I get to writing something and get to a point where I'm in the flow, that's where I'm enjoying myself. I've always just loved to write so even if I didn't feel like my research was good enough, I was just ready to write as though it was and it would work.

Cariann: Yeah. Do you ever think that you would make music about history?

Katie: I would love to.

Cariann: And kind of mesh your loves together?

Katie: Yeah, for sure. I feel like I've always wanted a career that encompasses a lot of different things and I want to write a musical.

Cariann: That is so cool!

Katie: It should be a historical themed one, that would be cool. Horrible Histories, I grew up watching. Do you have that over there? It's such, oh, my gosh, you need to get on this end!

Cariann: What is it called again?

Katie: Horrible Histories. It was a kid's TV program but it's still brilliant to me now. It's musical historical education but it's brilliant. My manager and I  have this running joke that I'm going to write for Horrible Histories at one point in my career. 

Also, yeah, a musical has always been on the top of my bucket list and maybe it's going to be historical themed. I don't know, but I for sure would love to mesh them. I also still have academic goals and I think that they can coexist.

I would love to have a career that isn't limited, that encompasses a lot of different things. That's the same reason why I studied at a uni because I knew I wanted to do music. It was never a question of wanting to have a career as a history teacher or something, but it was always because I just wanted to pursue what I was enjoying at school but also career was slightly separate, you know?

Cariann: Yeah, yeah. I feel like our generation… well, I'm a millennial but I just feel like people our age, people in their early twenties have such a confluence of talents and that's so beneficial. I feel like we've been pushed to it. We've been called the lazy generation and we're always just buzzing to be productive but I feel like, as a result, we've become good at so many different things. And so, figuring out ways to put them together is really interesting, I find it fascinating.

Katie: And also I think that times have changed a bit in terms of, there's no longer one career that you choose at 18 or 16 that you have for the rest of your life. At least not for most people. Now, people turn their hands, a different career every 10 years or something on average and also side hustles. People are having multiple sources of income and spending their time doing different things. Also, the pandemic probably did that a lot. People were forced out of their one thing and realize that their time was split. So, I totally don't want to limit myself in terms of what could happen with history. I would love to just graduate, it would be a nice goal in 20 years and then who knows.

Cariann: Yeah, I feel that. My single mother put me through college and she says that my graduation day was her favorite day ever. So, it's a nice thing to feel like I did that, I did it, I worked hard and I did it.

Katie: When I was studying, I always forgot why I was there. [Laughs] When your goal is just one essay or the next thing, you forget, oh, I'm doing this to graduate with this, I always forgot that. And then, when I had to come out of it in fourth year, I was like, I really want to finish it. It's weird to know I could graduate with a BA, which I would love to do as well if it doesn't work out, but I want to do my dissertation.

Cariann: Yeah. It'll all happen when it's supposed to, it'll all fall into place.

Katie: It's weird how things work out and, yeah, the time was cut short, but I feel like it'll, without sounding very spiritual, I think it probably happened for a reason, that the timing is probably right.

Cariann: Well, yeah, I do want to talk about your music. I love complex but I also really love the other songs that you've released recently. What's been your favorite? Well, I'm sure that you've been afforded a lot of opportunities with what happened with the virality of it and the attention, but what's been your favorite part? What's been your favorite opportunity that's come up?

Katie: It feels like every day is a new fucking most exciting thing ever. I'm still blown away by the whole thing. Obviously, it happened so fast but, from the very start, the world opened up to me so much in a way that I'm struggling to comprehend. Oh, there's just so many crazy things. I feel like the luckiest person alive a lot of the time. But I think that there are moments, especially working with people, people approaching me to work together or people who I look up to so much being fans. When something collaborative comes up, that's a big pinch me moment, I guess. There are moments like that all the time, it's hard to even remember.

Even getting the chance to make a record was beyond my capabilities before this, because of budget and time. And when you're an independent artist and you're making minimum wage, it's like you don't have the opportunities to do that; I feel so lucky now. My first co-writing session was with Matt Maltese. He was one of my favorite artists before and, when I was 17, 18, and really getting into a career in music, his albums were really formative and then I ended up writing my lead single white lies with him. It's just moments like that. Greg Kurstin made my song complex with me and there are just so many moments like that where, creatively, the world just opened up in so many ways.

Making music videos is the coolest thing ever and I used to always make them with my Wii camcorder. So, now, having these massive production companies and these amazing directors and this team who's there to just execute my vision the way that it's in my head, this is such a privilege. It's overwhelming and intense but it's so exciting. So, yeah, there's just so much crazy shit. I was on a Billboard last week, what's going on? 

Cariann: I feel that, yeah. And it's so deserved, too. I feel similarly sometimes. I just do l'Odet outside of my normal 9 to 5 job. I'm in my bedroom, I don't get paid to do this, I just love doing it. And when I get to collaborate and meet people, I just feel so lucky but it's also, you all, I've just been doing this in my bedroom. I am not legit, I'm not prepared for this stuff but I'm just doing it and I feel so lucky.

Katie: Yeah, I feel the exact same way. I've always wanted to do it, I've always done music and I've written so much growing up and I've written so much the last few years but… I would do that if no one heard it. You know what I mean? And then, obviously, the imposter syndrome was real when the reason that you blow up is a video that you record in your parents' house of you singing a chorus that you wrote that week. That's insane and it's hard to match that with the reality that I have now. But it feels right and I was weirdly calm and I've been told by everyone that I was weirdly calm throughout the whole thing because I think you have to be. It becomes the new normal and you can't process it because it's too much, but having a good support system around you is great.

But yeah, I definitely have those moments where I'm like, "Mate, I just fucking made music in my bedroom and I wrote songs and I got paid nothing for it for years. And I was always doing this, but now this is all happening and I have money to make an album and I can work with the biggest producers in the world," it's all hard to deal with. But I think keeping my feet on the ground the whole time is really important and, when I go home, it's the Highlands, it's just that you can take yourself out of this world quite easily but, yeah, it's insane.

Cariann: And I love that people connect with that. The video that you posted on TikTok that everyone connected with was the one that didn't have any budget. It was the one where you were in your parents' house, you know what I mean? It's encouraging that that is what connects with people and everything else that comes after is a bonus. 

Katie: Yeah, and there's so many ways where it's the anxiety saying, having your success come from TikTok or having it come from a platform which is known for these big flashes and then nothing. It's known for these big, sensational, viral moments and then silence, that's what it's known for. But at the same time, it felt so democratic and it felt so raw and natural. As you said, the video that did it for me was one where it was just raw songwriting and it was brand new and I connected with it myself.

So, having that very unfiltered moment do that for me is such a privilege because, yeah… it meant that people were just really supporting, at the base level, my songwriting. Which is the dream. I watch that video now and again. Now that I can watch that video and I'm just like, what? I don't understand.

Cariann: No, yeah, that's so real. It's trying to string it together in your mind, it's impossible.

Katie: It's BC, before complex and AC, after complex. It is a completely different world and it's only four or five months ago. Not even five, it'd be four months ago.

Cariann: Yeah. And it's also interesting because, social media, I remember a time where I didn't have computers growing up.

Katie: It's bizarre. And TikTok will get overtaken by something else, I'm sure, but it is a great place in so many ways for now. It definitely has its problems, but I don't think it's created what's wrong with things, it just exacerbated them. But I think that, yeah, I just got very lucky.

Cariann: Have you talked to anyone else in the industry or otherwise that has had a viral moment? Have you talked to anyone else to get feedback or their point of view and their experience?

Katie: Yeah, I think I've talked to people in the industry who just have lots of different perspectives. I've got messages very early on from some of my favorite indie or TikTok people that I would say were the viral stars, I guess. I got lots of messages from amazing artists who had had similar moments like Sadie Jean, Ella Jane, Lizzie McAlpine.

Cariann: I love Lizzie!

Katie: Yeah, so good. I was like, hello, I'm star-struck. But it's lovely hearing from people because it's a community and, in a non-patronizing way to anyone else, it is something that you really cannot comprehend if you're not in it. There's different versions of it in different careers, I'm sure, but it's just this bizarre process and you're told how you should feel or you feel like you should act and feel a certain way and then there's so much guilt attached if you don't feel that way and it's very hard to process. And when it's all online, it's a whole different beast, but it's nice to hear people. And then, very early on in the process, I had pints with Lewis Capaldi, he also had a very crazy rise a few years ago.

And so, getting to talk to people like that is what makes it seem a bit more real, I guess, and everyone gets it. Even just the numbness of it or the way that you no longer are able to connect what's happening to you, I don't know. There's certain things that I'll say and [people with similar experiences] will be like, of course that's the case. And it's nice to have that affirmation from people that have been through a similar thing because it's such a bizarre process and it's very unique when it's online.

Cariann: Yeah, definitely. I am slightly mentally ill and, if that happened to me, I would be on speed dial with my therapist being like, all right, we need to meet more often. I need to be able to talk about this. Taking care of my mental health would be tough if that thing happened to me, I think.

Katie: It's so weird. I have my first wee stretch in time off coming up. And it's a weird one because, whenever I'm resting now, one, I'm only half resting because this industry never stops. But two, it's, I guess, getting my wee minute of processing my life changing completely in little bursts. I think that, if I was to have a three-month break, maybe I'd be able to process it but there's just no way of comprehending it. And I find myself getting tired really quickly these days and I'm like, okay, I'm probably just tired from what started four months ago and it hasn't really ended and will not end.

I totally get when artists, right now especially, are canceling their tours and they're being really open in an honorable way, about the craziness of the industry. It's nonstop and the internet is a large reason for that being especially unbearable now. And I'm all right so far, I've got a very good support system around me, but I can imagine that'd be just insane. I think I was the most excited right at the start, but you have to numb yourself to it in some regards because, as much as you can get the most amazing comments one minute, you don't know what's going to come up on your phone.

I've been very lucky. I've been very lucky with my response. But yeah, you never know when the tide's going to turn and that's, I guess, a low level anxiety constant.

Cariann: I'm glad that you have a good support system too, that makes me happy. But it's like when you're just floating through your life, things feel easier and you're able to rest. But like you were saying, when something like this happens and your career jump starts, it's like everything you do has to be much more intentional. It's like, okay, I have a week to rest, I have to actually force myself to rest. Okay, I'm going to see this friend, I have to actually be there for them because I'm so busy. I would imagine it becomes so emotionally exhausting.

Katie: Oh, yeah. It definitely is a case now where you have to say no to more things, I guess — be selective with your time, as you were saying. Everyone's been very understanding because I know that they all see what's happening and how quickly. Yeah, you can't be the way you were before. You can't navigate life in the same way anymore and it's for a great reason but it can be really, really disorienting. I think that it is a weird thing. At the beginning, it's one of those funny things where you think you're busy before and then you get too busy and then I'm sure that I'll have the same thing when I get even busier but I don't imagine how that's possible from the first couple months of composing complex. It's hard not to get existential about it but, at the same time, it's just nonstop — you don't have time to think. It's like I try to take advantage of the moment, and I am also trying to take it at a pace where it's survivable. I think it's every artist and I guess, in most careers, that's the balance, it's hard.

Cariann: I did want to ask you — what's been fulfilling you lately? Have you been listening to music or watching films or getting to do anything that's been filling your cup back up after everything?

Katie: Totally just music, which sounds funny because it's all music but it's not all music, I guess. 

I've been writing and listening so much, which is lovely, and I've always written but there was a wee... I guess, the first few weeks after complex where my life was shifting at such a rate that I couldn't write, and then I started to write more. But then, the last few weeks have just been really... It hasn't felt like a pressured stage of writing, I haven't felt like anyone's telling me you need to fucking write the album, it just seems to have poured out at me. And I've been in sessions, which is nice, which is my first time doing that — my first allocated period in this whole couple months where I've just been intensively making music for two weeks which is just amazing. That's what obviously fulfills me and listening to music.

I guess I hadn't really thought about that, but that's what I've been thinking about and doing the whole time. And from the outside, you would think that that's the life I always live or the life that any artist would live is just all that music all the time but you don't, you don't get the chance to be so intrinsic all the time.

Cariann: Good. I'm so glad. That makes me really happy for you that you've also surrounded yourself with people at this point that don't make you feel pressured and give you the space to let it pour out of you and don't shove anything down your throat. I'm just really happy for you.

Katie: I'm just lucky that I've always written a lot. And it's not all good, but I've always had a quick rate of writing and then it's obviously a case of going through it and being like, okay, what’s shit?  There's always going to be pressure in some aspects of the role but, yeah, in terms of the music, I've been given a lot of trust and they seem to understand the way I work. Going into the next year, I feel a very solid grounding as a musician and as a writer. I feel really excited about what's going to happen and I feel trusted, which is nice. And, I guess, it's foreseeable that somebody would get swallowed up by everything that has happened and the opportunities can be overbearing or even being signed by a record label can change that. But again, I've never felt more in charge of the writing and stuff which is cool. But yeah, it's a really weird one.

Cariann: Yeah, that's great, that's beautiful. Yeah, well, I don't want to take too much of your time but I really appreciate you sitting down and talking to me about this stuff. And I just think conversations like this are what need to exist on the internet and just sitting down and being able to understand someone and have a normal conversation. It's what I'm grateful for and I love your music and it's such a joy.

Katie: Thank you so much and I totally agree. The internet is just full of five-second clips and small quotes and it's nice to speak to someone and actually chat instead of it feeling like, yeah, just flashy which is always the concern. It's been lovely chatting with you and thank you so much for taking the time.

Interview By Cariann Bradley  | edited by Kass Ringo | design by Madeline Westfall |   Photos By Joe macgowan